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Zerosquare

Cheap cartridges for developers and gamers

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Zerosquare    10
It's statements like that which make people think you guys are condescending -- I offered something I'd already done as a suggestion, and your response is that it is a pointless thing to do - implying that I wasted my time. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way.
Not at all, I think we misunderstood each other there :)

 

There's something I'm not sure I understand. Do you have an independent serial number in the BIOS in addition to the flash chip unique number ? I thought you used the flash chip number only, since it identifies the hardware directly and it's hard to counterfeit. Or maybe the BIOS number is generated from the flash chip number in some way ?

 

I should have been more clear in my reply. The crux of the matter is that your Skunkboard and our flash cart have different design philosophies, and things that are justified for one of them may not be so for the other :

 

If I'm not mistaken, the Skunkboard is primarily a development tool. Serialized Skunkboards make sense because the hardware supports it natively, and this feature can be useful for developers who want to release betas versions to a few persons, without the risk of their game being released without their consent.

 

On the other hand, our cart has been designed as a way for developers to make it easy to release cartridge games. We added support for using it as a "generic flash cart" because it didn't cost anything extra, but it's not the primary use, and it's not really intended as a development tool either. Reflashing will probably be slower than on the Skunkboard (because it uses parallel port communication instead of USB, and I think the flash chip we use takes longer to erase -- I'll have to compare the datasheets), and the Skunkboard's USB port is definitely more convenient.

 

One of the consequences is that we never intended to support serialization, and the design choices reflect that. The flash chip doesn't include a serial number, and there is no safe place to store a self-created unique number. Of course it would be possible to include one in the BIOS, but :

- it wasn't designed to be secure, so anyone can overwrite it. We may even release the source, which makes security-by-obscurity pretty moot.

- it wasn't designed to be protected, or even present : developers may want to write the standard header (or their own code) in this area. Additionally, it can be corrupted / erased if the flashing process fails for some reason, such as power loss (and sector locking is not possible, because we'd like to be able to use both "top-boot" and "bottom-boot" devices, as stocks of both variants tend to fluctuate). This means that even in "normal usage", it's easy to end up with the serial number being erased, with no way of knowing what it originally was.

 

To sum it up, while serializing is useful for the Skunkboard, I don't think it's relevant for our flash cart. And I prefer no to offer it at all, instead of using a implementation I consider flawed :)

But if developers really want this feature, we could implement it.

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Zerosquare    10
Did you mean to say for 10 boards, each one would costs ~15 Euro? (+ shell, manufacturing etc?)
Yes. 1.5 euro per board would be nice, but unfortunately, there's no way we can get those prices :D

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Starcat    0

Hmm, isn't there a way to get cheaper prices when ordering more parts at once, like doing a bigger runs? Maybe it would be possible to ask developers and collect orders to get lower prices?

 

I'm just saying this because as thrilling as these news are, even if I had a new release ready, it's really a lot of money a developer would have to put into production of a cartride run without knowing how much he'll sell.

While CD games are not as cool, not as relieable and you reach less people, but at least they are really low-cost and can be done on demand, so you don't loose as much money on a release.

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Zerosquare    10

Yes, in reality the prices will be lower, because we will be manufacturing much more than 10 cartridges. The price I gave above is a maximum :)

 

We know it can add up to a lot of money in total. One solution is to ask for prepayment, or at least a money deposit, for preorders. That way you'll know how much persons are going to order, and you'll have some money from the start :)

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But if developers really want this feature, we could implement it.

 

Not something we'd ask for. We use Skunkboard for development, this will be for distribution. As you say, different end goals, different designs :)

 

 

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Starcat    0
Yes, in reality the prices will be lower, because we will be manufacturing much more than 10 cartridges. The price I gave above is a maximum :)

 

We know it can add up to a lot of money in total. One solution is to ask for prepayment, or at least a money deposit, for preorders. That way you'll know how much persons are going to order, and you'll have some money from the start :)

 

That's true. :)

Still, it may be worth a thought (if you didn't already intend to do this), to collect orders from multiple developers at the beginning to see how the prices will be.

Maybe it could be discussed in an ordering forum thread or so, when the time is there.

 

Of course you are right, I could also ask for preorders and then only produce as many carts of a game, as were preordered. :)

 

Anyway, regarding the savegame eeprom, if you consider this, I'd vote for the idea of having "developers carts" with 2k serial eeprom so our games can make use of larger savegames.

 

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Tursi    0

Thanks Zero, that actually makes a lot of sense. Published carts have no real need of a serial number. The flash cart feature could have it painlessly, though I see your reasoning for not doing it.

 

Fadest, successfully here in Paris, though it'll be a couple days till I am settled. Not sure how complex meeting would be and I wouldn't want you to drive an hour each way just for a lunch meet. ;) But up to you.

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Starcat    0

@Zerosquare: I just got an idea. You said, in a way the new cart works like the skunkboard. There has to be code to pass the encryption and later start the actual rom image on the cart, right?

Is a BJL Jag required to flash data to the cart, or could a function to upload code to the Jag's ram or the flash cart be added (when a certain button combo is pressed on boot up for example), so that you don't need a BJL Jag, but just the BJL cable?

I'm just thinking if it's not much trouble and doesn't add extra cost, it may be a cool feature.

 

That way any Jag could act as BJL Jag. ;) Maybe even add a Jagtopia feature (if reboot agrees to this), while you're at it ;)

Just an idea. :)

 

 

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Zerosquare    10

The "BJL emulation" part is already planned. Check the FAQ for details ;)

 

I thought about the CD-bypass feature too ; I'm not sure if we'll have enough space to include it (we only have a few kilobytes for the code), but if we can we'll do so :)

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Fadest    0
Fadest, successfully here in Paris, though it'll be a couple days till I am settled. Not sure how complex meeting would be and I wouldn't want you to drive an hour each way just for a lunch meet. ;) But up to you.

Unfortunately, it will be very hard for me to come to Paris during working week, especially now that my sons sport activities have started again...

It would have been a pleasure to meet you, but I hope we will have another occasion.

 

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The "BJL emulation" part is already planned. Check the FAQ for details ;)

 

I thought about the CD-bypass feature too ; I'm not sure if we'll have enough space to include it (we only have a few kilobytes for the code), but if we can we'll do so :)

 

Chat on IRC :)

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Bare minimum Jagtopia requires just over 2k - including the BIOS :)

 

I'd be more than happy to donate the code to this project if it helps to stop the sale of crazy overpriced CD Bypass carts on ebay and other sites.

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Zerosquare    10

AlexH : as a matter of fact, my job is designing hardware too, so I think I'll manage. But thanks for the help proposal anyways ;)

 

CJ : thanks, I'll definitely include your bypass code.

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Daniele    0
cartouche_flash.jpg

 

 

General

 

What is it ?

It is a 4 megabytes reprogrammable Jaguar cartridge, also known as a "flash cart".

 

What is it used for ?

The main use is allowing homebrew developers to release cartridge versions of their games. It can also be useful to people who don't have an Alpine Board/Atari Flash Cart/Skunkboard, to run cartridge-based games or betas.

 

What's the point, since blank cartridge PCBs already exist ? / If this is meant for building cartridges, why make it programmable more than once ?

The whole point is price and availability. The standard blank PCBs need special EPROMs chips that are expensive and hard to find, whereas this new cartridge uses modern parts that are cheap and readily available. Since Flash memory chips (which can be rewritten many times) are now cheaper than EPROMs, we thought we might as well make it reprogrammable.

 

Are cart shells included ?

It will depend on what people want ; we have a way to get them for a reasonable price.

 

What is the current status of the project ?

Hardware has been finalized and shown to work. Software is being worked on, and prices are being negotiated with suppliers.

 

When will it be available ?

When it's done -- no hard schedule, sorry ;)

 

Does this mean the JagCF project has been cancelled ?

Not at all. These are separate projects with different goals. The JagCF is still being developed.

 

 

Pricing and ordering

 

How much does it cost ?

We don't know for sure yet, since it will depend on the sales volume (electronic parts can be much cheaper when bought in bulk), and we have yet to get a quote on the assembly (soldering and shipping costs. For information, for 10 boards, the PCB and parts alone add up to less than 15 € (approx $19). A cart shell adds a few euros.

 

How many units will you manufacture ? Do I need to preorder right now ?

No need to hurry -- we'll take preorders once we know the final prices. There won't be a limit on the number of carts either ; we'll manufacture based on the number of orders.

 

Will you ship worldwide ? Will you accept PayPal ?

Yes to both.

 

Can I get a discount if I buy several carts at once ?

Unfortunately, no. Our profit margin will be very low, so we can't afford to offer discounts.

 

 

Hardware and support software

 

How is it programmed ?

By plugging it into the Jaguar, connecting a BJL cable to the second controller port, and running a flashing program on a PC.

 

Will I need a BJL-modded Jaguar, a JagCD, or something else for this to work ?

No. The cart will include the necessary code for communicating with the PC (like the Skunkboard does), so you won't need anything apart from the BJL cable.

 

My PC doesn't have a parallel port to plug the BJL cable into. Why didn't you include a USB connector on the cart ?

Because USB is complicated to support, and would have made the price significantly higher ; since one of the project's goals was to make the cheapest design possible for large releases, we decided not to include it. At this time, the cart requires a parallel port, either built-in or on a PCI/PCIe/PCMCIA/PC Card/ExpressCard. We're currently working on adding support for USB-based parallel port adapters, but it is too early to confirm if it will work.

 

What operating systems are going to be supported ?

Windows (from 98 to 7) and Linux.

 

What about Macintoshes ?

If the support for USB parallel ports works (as Macs don't have a built-in parallel port), and if we can find someone to port and maintain the code, it may be possible.

 

 

Usage

 

Will betas / commercial games work on this device ?

First, an important note : commercial games are not officially supported, and respecting copyright and other applicable laws is the user's responsibility. We don't condone or accept any liability for any illegal usage of this device.

That said, technically, the cart has a lot in common with the Skunkboard, meaning that the expected compatibility is about the same : most games will probably work fine.

 

Can I use it to play BattleSphere / BattleSphere Gold ?

See above. (oh, and by the way : it has not been tested, but we have reasons to believe it will not work).

 

Can I use it to run BJL games ? To create a cartridge version of a BJL game ?

Yes, both uses will be supported.

 

Can I use it to run CD games ?

In general, no.

 

Do game saves work ?

Yes.

 

 

For developers

 

Is any unauthorized software list / unique identifier / copy-protection hardware... included ?

No, as these features would have made the cost higher (and we don't think they're very useful or effective, anyways). If you need them, we suggest using a Skunkboard or manufacturing your own carts.

 

I don't want my games to run on this device.

No problem. Contact us, and we'll give you technical information on how to detect the cart and block it.

 

Can it be write-protected once it has been programmed ?

Yes. The included communication code can be removed after use, and there is a solder pad on the PCB which prevents any writes to the flash memory if it's enabled. Keep in mind that a motivated used could reverse both of these operations, though.

 

In what ways is it different from a "real" cartridge ?

The main difference is that the bus is only 16-bit wide instead of 32, and that the read accesses are 5 cycles instead of 10 -- the same as the Skunkboard. The EEPROM for saves works just like the one in commercial cartridges. The header (from $800000 to $801FFF) is not available, as it is used for the PC communication code ; the MEMCON setup value is also different to account for the different bus width and read cycle length.

 

Is there a way to program a large number of those boards quickly ?

Not really. Putting the contents to be programmed on a CD and using the JagCD could be a solution, but it remains to be seen if it's actually faster, not to mention the JagCD's flaky reliability.

-When you can order?

-With the cartridge and 'THE INSTALLATION including the driver?

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Zerosquare    10
-When you can order?
Soon ;)

Before the end of the year, we hope :)

 

-With the cartridge and 'THE INSTALLATION including the driver?
The software will be downloadable on our web site.

 

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Tursi    0

Ah, that's sooner than I expected.

 

Anyway, any chance you guys can call off the hounds? I've been really careful about not flooding your announcement thread at AtariAge with crap or dragging in people looking to flamewar, why is there so much Jagware BS in the Skunkboard thread there? Particularly SH3, and I don't know if Tyrant is a part of your group or not, but it's getting old.

 

I don't believe I've ever spoken a bad word about Jagware in any public forum, despite the number of bad things said about me by certain of your members at forums such as Yaronet, so this treatment is particularly perplexing.

 

The only reasonable thought I had is the timing between our announcement and yours. I'm sorry that the timing worked out as such, but since there's not much communication about secret projects, you can't expect the rest of the world to come to a halt just because you make an announcement. If you wanted to let me know even two months ago then it would have been early enough to stop things. It takes more time to arrange things when there's a middleman added.

 

On the plus side, this is definately the last Skunkboard run, so you guys can own the community again for a while. The parts to build them are just getting too difficult to find and we aren't really enthused about redesigning it.

 

 

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Tyrant    0
Anyway, any chance you guys can call off the hounds?

I think you're referring to me, and as I said on AA I'm nobody's (nobodies?) hound.

 

Still, sorry for making a mess of your thread over there, I only wanted to post one brief comment but then got dragged into saying more by certain other people. I'll try not to let it happen again.

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Fadest    0
I don't believe I've ever spoken a bad word about Jagware in any public forum, despite the number of bad things said about me by certain of your members at forums such as Yaronet, so this treatment is particularly perplexing.

I didn't remember reading something like this on Yaronet ???

Especiallu, numerous time. Usually, the Skunk is well appreciated here, even if only a few of Yaronet users have one (no official communication done here, but you are welcome to post in english if you want, like superfighter team, matashen, atari owl and some other s)

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sh3-rg    6
Particularly SH3

 

Sorry? Tursi, where have I said anything agasinst the Skunk in Sauron's skunk III thread or any other? I've only said POSITIVE things! I'm a HUGE fan of the skunk and have been since the day I got my first one.

 

A new skunk run is just what the Jaguar needs to stop the huge profiteering from collectors as proper developers get increasingly desperate to get their hands on the only realistic development tool for the Jaguar.

 

..

 

I told viMaster to sling his hook after he made that 'Reboot propaganda' post - nothing to do with you or your skunkboard. If you feel the need to tell anyone anything, how about you ask him to think twice before popping up at AA after months of inactivity only to troll about & stir up trouble where is isn't needed? I only posted positive comments in that thread & directed the talk of the skunk board form the Jagware cart thread to it before Mr. Master showed up with his snide comment.

 

So please don't come here pointing your finger at me without any good reason... and I'm not saying this in a bitchy or arrogant way, I'm asking you politely. I don't know what or if you indeed do have anything against me, but if you have a specific concern you can come direct to me & you'll find me approachable and easy going and quite unlike the picture that is painted by a couple of increasingly discredited ex-JS2 moderators.

 

I don't believe I've ever spoken a bad word about Jagware in any public forum

 

I don't think I've ever spoken a bad word about you or the skunkboard in any forum - I really don't see whay you have come over here to single me out. You are wrong if you think any of us have anything against you or the skunk. In fact, there's probably nobody out there who puts it to as much legal use as we do.

 

If you want some sound advice, consider this: maybe tell goatdan to ease off a little, he's kind of digging himself a hole of sorts. Everyone knows what the skunk does & doesn't do and if we're honest we'll admit that there are probably less than 30 or so of us developers using it for what it was truly intended. If he really wants to continue down that road of setting a shining example & commenting about his IGDA links & ties to the industry, he should seriously consider funding a development tool that will not run any existing commercial software at all full stop... either that or just keep it sensible in there & not get carried away in the flames.

 

The only reasonable thought I had is the timing between our announcement and yours. I'm sorry that the timing worked out as such, but since there's not much communication about secret projects, you can't expect the rest of the world to come to a halt just because you make an announcement. If you wanted to let me know even two months ago then it would have been early enough to stop things. It takes more time to arrange things when there's a middleman added.

 

Trusi, the Jagware cart is for putting out our games. It's not practical to use it for development - it has nowhere near the usability of the skunkboard as a development device. I can't see any reason why people would not buy the skunkboard, I mean, knowing Jaguar collectors as we do, they'll just have to own one to put on the shelf & look at for a start.

 

Nobody in any of the Jagware groups wants the skunkboard run stopped - that's miles away from what we feel. Nobody thinks that, nobody has said that. SCPCD has only done what kskunk said someone should do last year - to design a car that is really cheap & will let devs put their games out for a lot less than has been the case in the past.

 

The skunk III & the jagware flash cart are both technically aimed at developers - but yours is for design, and Jagware's is for production.

 

There should be no problem & no need for anyone to have said anything 2 months or any other time frame ago.

 

On the plus side, this is definately the last Skunkboard run, so you guys can own the community again for a while.

 

Nobody wants to 'own' communities... that's just weird.

 

The parts to build them are just getting too difficult to find and we aren't really enthused about redesigning it.

 

Exactly why we didn't ever expect to see another skunkboard as some of the parts have been obsoleted (which was discovered back when the Jagware cart was being designed & parts researched).

 

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Matmook    1

I want both device !!!!

- SkunkIII for coding/testing (BJL is nice... but just nice :D )

- Jagware Flash Card for testing /releasing :lol:

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sh3-rg    6
I want both device !!!!

- SkunkIII for coding/testing (BJL is nice... but just nice :D )

- Jagware Flash Card for testing /releasing :lol:

 

Exactly, they are the perfect partners for any proper developer. The only people who would not benefit from both devices being out there would be those who do not develop & just want to run ROMs. Well who cares about those people? They don't bring anything to the scene, they just take, so not even worth considering. I can't imagine they'd have a hell of a lot of fun fiddling about with a Jagware flash cart for those purposes anyway, as it's hardly going to be convenient compared to a fully-featured USB device like the skunk.

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Zerosquare    10

I'll probably end up repeating what others have said, but anyways...

 

I don't believe I've ever spoken a bad word about Jagware in any public forum, despite the number of bad things said about me by certain of your members at forums such as Yaronet, so this treatment is particularly perplexing.
Which members, and which posts ? I don't believe any Jagware member has a problem with you, and I don't remember anything derogatory said about you either. If you have something specific in mind, please elaborate, and we'll try to sort it out.

 

you can't expect the rest of the world to come to a halt just because you make an announcement. If you wanted to let me know even two months ago then it would have been early enough to stop things.
But nobody wants, or even expects, you to stop making the Skunkboards. A lot of Jagware developers have one or several of them and find them very useful (I know that at least Fadest, SebRmv and Reboot use them for developing their games).

 

We don't intend our flash cart to compete with your Skunkboard. They're not made for the same use, and both have their place. While I can't tell people that you can't use our Flash cart for development or testing stuff, I've tried to make it clear it's not the primary use, and that a Skunkboard is a better choice in this case.

 

Regarding the timing, yes, it's unfortunate. We didn't know, and I honestly wasn't thinking you'd do a third run of Skunkboards, as your request for someone to fund it was a while ago, and nobody had responded (at least not publicly).

 

The only thing that disturbed me was that the block list wasn't public, but you explained why it is so on AtariAge. I still think that asking your game to be banned and refusing to admit it publicly is a pretty coward behavior, but if you have an agreement with those developers, the choice is not yours to make and I understand that. And I certainly won't blame you for wanting to avoid flamewars (believe me, I found myself trapped in enough of them back when we started discussing the JagCF).

 

I'll say it once more : I don't have any problem with you or the Skunkboard :)

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Tursi    0

Thanks for the replies, even the ones that are a little angry.

 

First, it's the bickering in general that annoys me, I'm not accusing people of flaming the skunkboard (although the jab about EEPROMs, whichever thread that was in, was annoying. I'm not aware of any title that fails to run for lack of EEPROM so that's not exactly a compatibility issue). I've already gotten apologies from viMaster, SH3, for his lashing out in the thread, and I've already asked Dan to back down a bit too. You guys are not the only ones I wrote to yesterday.

 

There's simply a lot of condescending comments, unnecessary off-topic cheerleading, all the crap that we used to see in the bad old days, and I was trying to keep it out of there. You can make a subtle attack that's too borderline for an outsider to recognize, and then say "What? I didn't say anything!", but that's just childish. I'm too busy to deal with it, so I was trying to stop BOTH sides before it escalated. I don't know Sauron's relationship to you guys, but he's up there, too, I just assumed that he was a cheerleader and not a member, so I didn't mention him here.

 

As for the stuff posted at Yaronet - there's nothing to sort out. That was how many years ago? I doubt I could even find it now - but there was plenty of sneering about the Skunkboard being a piracy device (until someone pointed out it can't dump cartridges when it resides in the cartridge slot), and plenty of jeering about how the shit was going to hit the fan as soon as people started trying to use it to play Battlesphere. And lots, and lots of complaining because I was "one of them" (a JS2 user) and that's why I wasn't getting in trouble for making it in the first place. This was after the first release announcement, so it was ages ago.

 

When I came onto the scene, you guys didn't know me, but neither did "they" (and the us-vs-them mentality has always annoyed me). I literally spent months negotiating the release behind the scenes, and THAT is why I didn't get in trouble for making Skunkboard in the first place.

 

You guys know what the damned block list is - /I'm/ just not allowed to SAY. So it really pisses me off to see it turned into another copy of the same damned argument that the community keeps dragging up. "Stop telling me not to copy games!". In this case nobody was even arguing the other side! You guys didn't cause all of it, but some of you did participate. And Tyrant, it's not all about you - you addressed the parts I meant for you and the parts that confuse you do so because they were not. I was satisfied with your apology yesterday (I have not gone back yet today, so I hope it hasn't derailed further - I left your post as the last one because it seemed the best place to pause.)

 

SH3, you said some things that specifically set viMaster off. He apologized to me after my post, but while I understand your response, had his barb gone un-replied to, that would have been the end of it. As for finger pointing, I have gone and pointed my finger at everyone I felt was involved, but I don't have a private way to get to you guys (you are free to delete these posts when we are done if you'd rather not keep them public, and they are kind of in the wrong thread.).

 

Cyrano, you are trying to be funny, and I appreciate that, but the fact is that when you slip a barb in with the compliment, no matter how small, it taints the whole thing. You get someone mad and the compliment is meaningless. Choose your words carefully and if you are sincere, separate the sincerity from any of the political games. It's really easy in English to change the tone of a message by accident in text. I know I screw it up all the time. ;)

 

Let me add that none of you here have been on my bad list in the past. I haven't had a problem with you guys in past releases, except for annoyance that some people associated with Jagware feel to need to put subtle attacks in too many of their things (SH3 - your user logo at AA is a clear slap in the face at Gorf or whoever else was doing that dumb POWA thing - that's the sort of thing I am talking about. He's not even there to see it but you carry on the little battle anyway). It makes it look like you are looking for a fight. To be fair, I also see people from other camps doing this from time to time, and that also annoys me. When it happens around my work, I try to put a stop to it (and elsewhere I just don't read it at all, usually).

 

At any rate, you know my stance, and I appreciate hearing your side of it. I'll go back to AA and do my best to ignore any further issues in that thread, except another call for peace if need be. I'd appreciate if everyone would help by showing restraint themselves.

 

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