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Supporting A New Controller In Your Games ?


GT Turbo

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...well.. I started a similar thing some year ago..

but my project had much less "will destroy your jaguar" in the specs..

 

I like the idea of a analouge gamepad for the jaguar.. and any future projects I will release will defenitely support one, but I beleive he's going about it in a bit of the wrong way.

 

 

1st Im sure atari never intened more than one, or max 2 intelligent devices to be connected to the jag at the same time (currentconsumption,time to read them all, usually an advanced controller means advanced game -> have the jag got time for more than 2 simultaneous players?,....)

Hence Id make it detect a team tap & shut down if its present.. (Not to blowUp your jaguar! this should Never!! be an option!). and make max2 controllers / jag, one to each port.

 

2nd If i got it right, hes going to make a custom made, controller..(alter internals?) and as i hear it will be dificult to find good enough controllers to sell as new products.. ?.. this I beleive will limit the product to "rare" status even before its official release. and it will be useless to jaguar gamers, since no games will be made for a market of only 15 (or so) controllers.

 

 

Why not instead make it more a "true" adaptor: 15pinHDsub,pcb,CPU,a PS socket + a bit more electronics, at a production cost of... well.. 120SEK Im not exagurating.. (~13euro,8pounds).

Thas what I planed for my project.. (now I will atleast have ALLOT of PS sockets over for other projects since i bought them already :)

 

Another more "drastic" idea would be to make the above but without the PS socket.. make it a "cut the coord-solder here" kind of thing. Would destroy your PS controller... but you could take ANY PS controller doing this.. and there is no shortage of ps controllers in general.. and Every jaguar gamer could in theory get one... makeing the market bigger, making people wanna support it in their games...

 

Both these options could offcourse support other devices aswell.. not just the controller, but also a PS Analogue steeringweel, a lightgun, what more gadgets were released? ....well I also bought a PS memorycard to experiment with, since the PS sockets has a 2nd port underneeth for a memorycard (but thats nolonger a plans due to unlimitless space in the jagCF), ....dance mat?...

 

Well point beeing that if its not "custom made" there will never be a shortage of hardware to connect!... this I beleive should be strived for! since we do not need "yet another ultra rare object that will never be usable" for the jaguar.... we need "Gameplay-for-the-masses" :)

 

my thoughts on this topic

 

 

cheers

/Symmetry

supporting: Gameplay for the Masses :)

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...well.. I started a similar thing some year ago..

but my project had much less "will destroy your jaguar" in the specs..

I am not really sure where you get that from as a single controller connected to a port will not damage a Jaguar, however it would be irisponsible not let people know of combinations that could do so if exceeded. Are you saying you would not provide people with such information?

I like the idea of a analouge gamepad for the jaguar.. and any future projects I will release will defenitely support one, but I beleive he's going about it in a bit of the wrong way.

1st Im sure atari never intened more than one, or max 2 intelligent devices to be connected to the jag at the same time (currentconsumption,time to read them all, usually an advanced controller means advanced game -> have the jag got time for more than 2 simultaneous players?,....)

Hence Id make it detect a team tap & shut down if its present.. (Not to blowUp your jaguar! this should Never!! be an option!). and make max2 controllers / jag, one to each port.

You can not be certain of that, at the time Atari wrote the specs virbation feed back was probably not concidered (as it is not mentioned) and without that feature my conversion only uses 7mA of current and so connecting four via a team tap would only consume about 60% of the available current per controller port. My conversion only uses 10mA when connected to a Team Tap as Team Tap operation is indicated by an LED.

It takes about 1mS to read a controller and the VBL occures every 20mS (50Hz, PAL), I am no expert on the software instruction timing for the Jag but considering that both ports are written and read simultanously I would estimate that it would take no more than 6ms to read and decode the data for 8 controllers connected via two team taps which leaves 14ms for the Jag to do other things so it may be possible to read 8 depening on the overhead required by the game software itself. Just because you are using the features of an advanced controller for say moving the player at different speeds depening on the analogue value does not mean that the game objective or graphics also have to be so advanced to make reading 8 advanced controllers impossible.

If what you are trying to say is that the number of way of connecting the controller to the Jag may be confusing and could lead to people inadvertantly overloading their Jaguar then you have raised a valid point as such information would need to be clear and included with all compatible software. If people feel that is a problem then Team Tap support can easily be removed and multiplayer gaming would be restircted to either two players or via a network it's just that it was possible to include so I did.

With Team Tap support removed the only valid connection would be direct to the Jaguars controller ports and if connected to a Team Tap it would only consume 7mA and would not respond to any control codes recieved.

2nd If i got it right, hes going to make a custom made, controller..(alter internals?) and as i hear it will be dificult to find good enough controllers to sell as new products.. ?.. this I beleive will limit the product to "rare" status even before its official release. and it will be useless to jaguar gamers, since no games will be made for a market of only 15 (or so) controllers.

Why not instead make it more a "true" adaptor: 15pinHDsub,pcb,CPU,a PS socket + a bit more electronics, at a production cost of... well.. 120SEK Im not exagurating.. (~13euro,8pounds).

Thas what I planed for my project.. (now I will atleast have ALLOT of PS sockets over for other projects since i bought them already :)

With regard to the 15 units, that is only the number of new controllers that I have available to me at this time and therefore the number of complete controllers that I could sell in the knowledge that they will not fail shortly after devliery to the customer, I could use second hand controllers but without that certainty. Taking the adaptor approach will not make any extra new controllers appear or improve the life span of used controllers, also the adaptor firmware would have to (at a mimimum) be able to identify the different controller types and be able to drive them appropriately.

That is why I announced this now so that people who want to can obtain a couple of cheap used controllers off e-bay for conversion at a later date (one for spares) and and in doing so accecpt that the usefull lifetime for such a controller is unknown and that conversely I can only vouch for the relaibility of the hardware I have added and not the controller as a whole, thus more than 15 can be produced, just not sold as complete New units.

I could also build more than 15 by modifying the Dual Shock 2 however with these units feedback is unavailable, if you don't mind loosing the feedback function then don't pick up a used PS One controller for modification at a later date, its your choice. I know the controller situation is a little messy and that is unfortunate but I am not responcible for the design changes made to the controllers by Sony.

 

For those who have not read the entire thread on AA my reasons for doing a modification as opposed to an adaptor are...

1) Plugging A into B into C possibly via D = messy setup

2) From what little data is available on line the original controller uses a system that is similar in style to both SCI and I2C but is neither. It is therefore probably a preparatory system designed by Sony and so writing software to read and communicate with it may incure a licencing fee or result in being sued for breach of copyright either of which would be impossible and impractical to pay. Modification avoids those issues.

3) In my opinion the cost difference in creating an adaptor verses a modification are small, however if you think you can build one that supports all PS controllers for 13 Euros then by all means do so and I will continue along the modification route. The fact that you have not yet produced such a unit would lead me to think that it is not as cheap and easy as you make it sound.

4) Data on the controllers is scarce and may not be accurate as what I have seen does not include buttons L3 & R3 so what else could they have missed/be incorrect and is only for the PS one controllers.

 

P.S.

Someone on the Hardware forum at Atari Age was looking for some PS sockets if you want to sell some.

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sorry itmust be something with my english.. everyone seem to missunderstand me =)

 

in the pdf file I can read:

1) under "team tap compatibility" at the end i can read "to prevent damage to your jaguar....." ..."not more than 3".

 

2) under multi tap comp. i read again.. "to prevent potential damage to your jaguar..."

 

 

?.... I never said that connecting 1 controller would destroy your jag, read my post again.. *handen i pannan* ..Nor did i say that I would not include that in "my controller manual"...

 

NO! wait..... its better to take things once again from the top.

Some people seem to think that I wanna "shoot down"this project... and that, I consider to be an Insult to my jaguar self (though they are already forgiven for thinking that of me =) ..On the contrary!.. I just thought to say my thoughts Before final production of the units, since I want EVERYONE to have one!..

 

 

so I will try to reformulate the "destroy your jaguar" statemet as follows:

 

I would verry much like to see a solution that is "idiot safe" (pardon the expression =) ..ie I would highly recomend rethinking the HW solution to make it NOT possible to ever blow up your jaguar even if you didnt read the manual that says "dont connect more than 3.. or dont do this or that".

 

Do you follow? ...ie i'd rather see a solution where you either a) make an external PSU or B ) detect the teemtaps (in hardware!) and make the controller useless. ie make it 1controller/jaguar port. (What i ment was that the ideas i had of this project had such a "limitation".. since I beleive it should never be a risk to destroy my jaguar just because i didnt read the fineprint in the manual.

 

Yes option a) would increase price no point in saying that... but it would also give full rumble pack support.. something I would like! =)

I sincerely hope that explained my point better.. (?)

 

 

some comments:

 

hmm.. 6ms to read &decode 8 controllers...14ms to do other things.. ie 30% time just to read the controller (if your estimations are correct). no wonder the only game that supports it isnt that great :P ...

 

>does not mean that the game objective or graphics also have to be so advanced to make reading 8 advanced controllers impossible.

 

No but we could HOPE, could we not? ;)

I dont want an analoge paddle for PONG.... nor an analoge white man that cant jump =) ... I want to analogusly move the shotgun in Doom or move my head in any other FPS or 3D game... And hence I'd sattle for 2 analogus player/jaguar ...(OR if the 1) option is choosen above.. then this is no diskussion since 8players could be connected without burning some PCB traces on your jaguar... though gameplay would be limited to 8ply pong.. hmm.. =)

 

 

>could lead to people inadvertantly overloading their Jaguar then you have raised a valid point

YES!.. =) ..thank you... thats exactly my point.

 

I can atleast think of one jaguar user that would connect 2teemtaps & connect all ports to such a controller... Without reading the manual.. (since he never read a manual in his life =) ...point beeing that no hardware should offer the possibility to destroy your jaguar (if you by accident didnt read the manual).

Then I would suggest doing it in another way.. in the HW i mean.

 

 

15 units:

Well... I understood what you point out. but my point is that I want to use my old PS controller without sending it 2u =) (if you pardon my honesty). Ie an adaptor would be the easiest way for me, cut&solder would still be childsplay to most people.

And i cant beleive Im the only one that feels like that? ...or that Im the only one that have an old yes, but working PS controller lying around that could be used... and i mean the adaptor should be so well done that if control fails to work, then i'd be sure it was a broken PS controller and you could just get a "new" one at ebay (or whereever) and there would be no need to re-alter/resend the controller to you for remodification.

 

I mean from a consumer point of view I would have it no other way.. since that would be a great analogue adaptor product for the jaguar. And from a "hobby" producer point of view I would sugest you to rethink the idea of "warranty"... I mean even if you would offer "limited warranty" on new controllers, even shorter "warranty" on old PS controllers (to fill up possible demand) It might be hell for you when peoples controllers just happen to break JUST after they bought it from you.. "and I want a refound! and offcourse I will not pay shipping!" ...

I mean.. Im just trying to be helpfull here.. I dont even want my worst enemy (NOT saying you are one) to feel the wrath of unsattisfied customers demanding warranty on their broken unit that they Just bought!.. and "didn't do nothing wrong" with.. *shruggs* =)

...I mean please dont go there you'll just be miserable.

 

It would be much more easy to controll the "warranty" issue with an adaptor approach... since All adaptors could be professionally made and tested in advance. and you could leave the 'finding a 2nd hand PS controller' trouble to the end user and he could never blame you if his controller didnt work perfectly for 3years after purschase.

 

 

>adaptor firmware recognize & drive appropriately

Yes it would.. and that is why this is not such a simple task as one first would assume.

And also why It will take time, effort, hard work to make one.

 

 

some last comments:

 

1) ?

 

2) jagscene do have problem with warn out licence issues I know thats a fakt =)

 

3) no need for hard words.. I know it is not an easy task, I know it would incorporate some rev. engineering on the protocal, and 13eauros was as much an estimate as your 1ms was ;)... but Im no fool when it comes to electronics and Im perhapps not as stupid as some people might have you beleive :P and its not in the hardware as such but in the program thats written for the adaptor CPU.

 

4) I did resurch to and desiced its best to make my own investigation not to base my project on other peoples guesses.

 

5) Nop.. sockets stay... =) btw Im not "blaiming" you for my desision to buy them... though Im assuming this is what you implied (?). You have to realise that I never meen bad with my posts (usually atleast, some jagscene issues drives me nutts but nothing here at JW) and any harsh interpretation is on the reciving side and never ment by the poster =)

 

Well I hope that you keep us (&me=) informed of the progress anyway... since I would Love to see an analogue controller for the jaguar.

And No Hard feelings! here at Jagware we are all friends! =)

 

cheers

/Symmetry

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in the pdf file I can read:

1) under "team tap compatibility" at the end i can read "to prevent damage to your jaguar....." ..."not more than 3".

 

2) under multi tap comp. i read again.. "to prevent potential damage to your jaguar..."

?.... I never said that connecting 1 controller would destroy your jag, read my post again.. *handen i pannan* ..Nor did i say that I would not include that in "my controller manual"...

 

- cut -

On the contrary!.. I just thought to say my thoughts Before final production of the units, since I want EVERYONE to have one!..

I don't object to anyone voicing an reasoned & informed opinion in fact I requested so that I could see what people wanted/expected from it before finalising the design/firmware, however by making you first comments, and I quote "but my project had much less "will destroy your jaguar" in the specs.." you could give anyone who has not read the full document the impression that it is likely to damage their Jaguar if connected which is untrue if the limits are adheared to.

 

Well... I understood what you point out. but my point is that I want to use my old PS controller without sending it 2u =) (if you pardon my honesty). Ie an adaptor would be the easiest way for me, cut&solder would still be childsplay to most people.

And i cant beleive Im the only one that feels like that?

I could sent the new PCB to anyone who feels confident enough to install it themselves and you are not the only one who feels that an adaptor is the way to go, someone on AA also expressed a preference for an adaptor. As I said on AA I have not ruled out an adaptor entirely but with a lack of reliable information on the controller specs and then only data for the PS One controller and not also the Dual Shock 2 I felt that modification was the easier and quicker option for me (6 months from concept to working unit).

No point asking Sony for infomation either as they just ignor you, well they ingored me anyway.

3) no need for hard words..

I did not want it to sound as harsh as it did but at the time I could find no better way of expressing my opinion, if your estimate had been closer to double what you stated I would have found it more reasonable as unless you can get things very cheaply where you are just a PIC, a case and the sleeving for the Jaguar connector (using my normal method) would be about £10 (roughly 15 Euros).

5) Nop.. sockets stay... =) btw Im not "blaiming" you for my desision to buy them... though Im assuming this is what you implied (?).

No, I was mearly pointing put that someone wanted to purchase some if you wanted to sell some.

 

Well if you do manage to produce an adaptor before I go into production I assume you would still have to conform to the bank switching protocol for the Jaguar to read it, in which case if you could arrange your bank output data to be the same as mine any software written for one will work with the other regardless of which one ends up being produced and purchased by the user.

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